Topic: need help - short time frame (Read 799 times)

Kavik · « **on:** September 15, 2011, 01:14:46 AM »

Okay, my aunt is visiting from NH to help my mom during her recovery from having her thyroid removed. Her car was fine on the drive down, but this morning driving to the hospital all this shit started, and was worse tonight driving home. She's here only till tuesday then has to drive back to NH.

1998 legacy outback wagon, 5sp
has already had 2 used motors put in since they bought it. (don't know how long ago, she said "it's been years")

current issues:
1) Speedometer all of a sudden doesn't move (no clue)
2) Big sudden loss of power (no clue, maybe related to issue 4)
3) Drives okay at highway speeds, but city driving it bucks and wants to stall at lights unless you keep it revved up (no clue)
4) Possible head gasket issue? This one's tricky. She has a black, oily residue coating the inside of the coolant overflow tank, but the engine was replaced once before because of a blown head gasket, so I don't know if they just never cleaned it out from the last one or if this is a sign of the current problem. The oil level is just slightly below full and looks fairly clean on the dipstick, but there was a little bit of creamy looking oil in the filler neck....maybe just condensation in the few drops that stay pooled up there in that inner rim?

No CEL's so far, was driven twice, probably 20-30 miles total

Unrelated issues:
5) Engine rocks like it's on springs, motor mounts look pretty shot.
6) Needs a steering rack
7) I broke both lower tabs that mount the grill and need to try to replace those before she leaves

Tomorrow she's going to call around and see if any local places sell those sniffer testers to see if there's coolant in the oil. Beyond that though I didn't know what to suggest. She just put over $2k into the car very recently, but doesn't want to put much more into it, so if it's the head gasket we're not sure what she's going to do.

Any suggestions on any or all of these issues will be greatly appreciated!

KA_Killuh · « **Reply #1 on:** September 15, 2011, 06:22:41 AM »

Try going to Advance or Auto Zone and get the alternator tested. It might be weak and not putting out enough juice, especially at low RPMs. And they are super easy to replace on a Subaru, but I'm sure you will tighten it too much and break the 5" long adjuster bolt off.

In all honesty though, if there is a time limit on this you might want to go straight to a professional and ha

Kavik · « **Reply #2 on:** September 15, 2011, 10:49:56 AM »

i knew there was something obvious I was overlooking

I noticed her belts looked "okay", but felt a little less snug than they could be....i just didn't put it together with the issues (it was late and had been a long and very stressful day)

Are those bolts prone to snapping? I've had a few of those loose and re-tightened, never had an issue with them personally

she was going to take it to the shop my brother in law works at, but it's a bit of a drive and she's nervous about driving it now. I figured I'd see what I could find out quick, but we may end up going that route

skyphix · « **Reply #3 on:** September 15, 2011, 10:55:38 AM »

Quote from: Kavik on September 15, 2011, 10:49:56 AM

i knew there was something obvious I was overlooking
I noticed her belts looked "okay", but felt a little less snug than they could be....i just didn't put it together with the issues (it was late and had been a long and very stressful day)

Are those bolts prone to snapping? I've had a few of those loose and re-tightened, never had an issue with them personally

she was going to take it to the shop my brother in law works at, but it's a bit of a drive and she's nervous about driving it now. I figured I'd see what I could find out quick, but we may end up going that route

Loosen the retaining bolt before you adjust the tension on it and you should be alright. We beat on the one in my car pretty good with an impact gun to get it to turn and it didn't snap off. The retaining bolt is toward the bottom of the bracket.

hydrochloric · « **Reply #4 on:** September 15, 2011, 11:17:03 AM »

All of those symptoms are exactly what happened when my alternator had died and my battery finally couldn't keep up.

First, as I was driving, the gauges turned off. Then the off'd and on'd a couple times, then less than a 1/4 mile from the first gauge fail, the engine started losing power (weak spark) and then barely idled. I managed to get to a gas station, and when I pulled it in died before I even had the chance to turn the key.

Definitely the alternator. Be careful with Advance Auto remans, the first one I got, the mounts were to close and it wouldn't mount.

Kavik · « **Reply #5 on:** September 15, 2011, 11:24:54 AM »

will definitely see what I can find out on that first then. thanks guys!

rshaw123 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 15, 2011, 11:35:17 AM »

Check the grounds too. My old legacy did that because I had a ground wire that moved slightly and wasn't getting good contact.

Kavik · « **Reply #7 on:** September 15, 2011, 11:51:44 AM »

oddly enough, I have supplies for fixing that if that's the case

Kavik · « **Reply #8 on:** September 15, 2011, 09:52:10 PM »

well, AutoZone said her alternator tested fine.
I tightened up her alternator belt, but couldn't get the a/c belt tensioner loose (her a/c doesn't work anyway though, so does that belt even need to be there??) Also cleaned up and greased all her grounds, then she drove it down to the shop that the guy at autozone recommended.

she said it drove a little smoother and didn't want to die as much, but still no speedometer.

RedRoof2 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 16, 2011, 06:55:30 AM »

Could be multiple issues. Alternator would've been my initial bet, assuming the rough running was linked to the inop speedo. Are there any other gauges not working, or any other trouble lights on? You're SURE there are no CEL codes in memory? I"d scan it anyway, in case the bulb is blown.

Kavik · « **Reply #10 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:51:58 AM »

all the other gauges seemed to be working fine.
I didn't scan it to be sure...you're right, I should've, but timing was always an issue. Either I didn't have time to take it somewhere, or the times I was looking at it would've been after places were closed, and I don't have my own scanner. I'm sure that's the first thing the place she took it to will check though

hydrochloric · « **Reply #11 on:** September 16, 2011, 09:11:18 PM »

Okay, I'm amazed it wasn't the alternator. You had pretty much described exactly what happened to me when my alt (then battery) crapped, even down to the high-revving to keep it alive (I had to drive at 45MPH in 2nd gear to keep the car running).

Thing is, this is all electrical, so the HG really wouldn't have any way of causing this that I can see (short of maybe leaking all over electronics). I'm wondering if maybe the coil pack is bad? That would account for the weak spark, but the speedo isn't reading from that...

I have a Kiwi WiFi OBDII module that I use on my car, coupled to my iPod it gives me just about all the info I need. No clue if I could get it to you, or if you could use it, but that's an option. If it can see a speed signal, then obviously there's an issue with the speedo, but that still shouldn't cause a drivability issue...

Also, my mom had her thyroid removed about 2 months ago, too. I hope yours won't have to do the Iodine cocktail either.

Kavik · « **Reply #12 on:** September 16, 2011, 10:33:43 PM »

I've got an app, but haven't bought the obd/bluetooth thing yet, I just keep forgetting about grabbing it LOL
Only reason head gasket came to mind was the oily residue in the coolant overflow, but the second time I looked at the car it was cold and the coolant in the radiator looked clean.
I didn't hear back from her today, but will be seeing her tomorrow. Hopefully the shop will have found the source of the problem by then.

Not sure about the iodine, there was some radioactive stuff involved though. She was joking with my son about how she'd be radioactive, so he of course linked that to being a super hero

They're still holding her hostage for observation at least one more night, but things went real well with that from what they're saying

Kavik · « **Reply #13 on:** September 17, 2011, 02:28:33 PM »

Quote from: RedRoof2 on September 16, 2011, 06:55:30 AM

Could be multiple issues. Alternator would've been my initial bet, assuming the rough running was linked to the inop speedo. Are there any other gauges not working, or any other trouble lights on? You're SURE there are no CEL codes in memory? I"d scan it anyway, in case the bulb is blown.

you were right LOL
P0420 - cat inefficiency
P0500 - Vehicle speed sensor malfunction 1
P1540 - Vehicle speed sensor malfunction 2
P1507 - Idle control valve
P0505 - Idle control malfunction

P0420 we all know, and know how to deal with

But as for the rest, it turns out the power issues were a combination of her bad grounds and the car being in limp mode! Since the CEL bulb is burned out we obviously didn't have a flashing indicator to let us know it was limping. Once I cleaned up the grounds it still had a very low idle, but no longer stalled out because of that.

From reading, the Idle control CEL's may be caused by the car being in limp mode.

The shop gave her the codes and said they also found a couple bare wires in the wiring harness (you should see the hack job they did on that when they replaced the engine), but said to diagnose the rest could be $80, could be $1,000 depending on how deep they have to dig in the wiring.

So, she had them do a safety inspection and they said it's fine to drive until she can get it fixed. I just don't know now if I'll be able to figure out if it's the wires or the sensors by monday night....and capitaland would have to order the sensor, haven't tried goldscums yet

peter32892 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 17, 2011, 02:32:55 PM »

I would see if you can clean the idle air control valve out, it can get clogged up with crap and just needs to be cleaned, the speed sensor I would see if fred has one.

Kavik · « **Reply #15 on:** September 17, 2011, 10:17:39 PM »

I'm not planning on messing with the IACV unless that code is still there after the car is out of limp mode. I'm sure it wouldn't hurt, it's just not top priority if it end up being a phantom code.

when I PM'ed Fred about the issues in general, he didn't mention having any used parts that would be related to any of this

hydrochloric · « **Reply #16 on:** September 18, 2011, 08:10:11 PM »

I'm not very familiar with the VSS sensors on Leggys... Are they just the front ABS tone sensors? It gives two codes, whereas if it were a tranny pickup I would think it would have only one code...

Kavik · « **Reply #17 on:** September 18, 2011, 09:47:47 PM »

Unfortunately, I'm not either lol
There is a sensor in the tranny though, with 2 wires. I read that some have another sensor in the gauge cluster, but I think that might have been a year prior to this one, not sure though....
Of course, if it's a wiring issue and not the sensor itself, it could spit out any manner of crazy shit

hydrochloric · « **Reply #18 on:** September 19, 2011, 07:19:10 PM »

Well, by inference, the Impreza was built more or less as a take-off of the legacy platform, so it most likely shares as much as possible (Subaru is abit penny-pinching like that). So far as I know, on my '00, the ABS tone sensors are separate from the VSS signal, because comparing the two is how the computer knows a wheel has locked.

Anyway, from NASTICO*K:

Quote

Allow me to help.
The code P0500 sends the ECU into limp mode, which causes the fuel cut and a low idle. The car then gets confused and interprets this fuel cut and low idle as a problem with the IACV, thus causing the P1540.

Also from that thread:

Quote

I have a 97 Legacy Outback 5spd with a rebuilt 2.2 engine (typical of imprezas). Approx 230k miles on chassis and assumed on all sensors, engine rebuilt 55,000 mi ago.

Everything was running perfectly fine until last Monday.

Then I started it and right away my speedometer and odometer don't work, idle is closer to 500RPM then 750, cruise doesn't work, check engine light is on (haven't taken it above 4500RPM but I will tomorrow) and I'm having the same codes show up:

*P0500: Vehicle speed sensor malfunction A
*P1540: Vehicle Speed Sensor Malfunction (Long Time Diagnosis)

I just tested the voltage across the speed sensor on the transmission and it was 390 ohms. I read the following somewhere in regards to the legacy:

"Check The Vehicle Speed Sensors.

The Legacy has 2 Vehicle Speed Sensors (VSS): VSS1 is located inside of the transaxle; VSS2 is located in the combination meter assembly.

VSS1
1.   Disconnect the electrical harness from the transaxle.
2.   Connect an ohmmeter across the transaxle's electrical harness terminals 9 and 16.
3.   The resistance should be 450-650 ohms.
4.   After testing, reconnect the electrical harness.
VSS2
1.   Remove the instrument cluster from the instrument panel.
2.   Disconnect the electrical connectors and the speedometer cable from the instrument cluster.
3.   Connect an ohmmeter or continuity tester across the combination meter terminals 7 and 11.
4.   Insert a small screwdriver in the speedometer cable drive socket.
5.   Rotate the speedometer drive and note the continuity across the VSS terminal. Continuity should turn ON/OFF 4 times per speedometer drive revolution"

I don't know if having the 2.2L engine makes anything different than that of the 2.5 that is more common and the OEM engine my car had but my resistance is lower than 450 ohms. Is the answer as simple as my Speed sensor is shot just because it's off by 50? I don't know much about electrical but I don't want to dump $100+ into something that isn't a guaranteed fix.

I also removed my electrical cluster and cleaned the laminated connections on the back of the speedometer. all wires appeared to be intact on the cluster.

Anyone have any additional information on this problem and/or has solved it? Does anyone know how the speed information is given to the cluster and what the common failures of it are?

Sorry for the long post, but it appears there's some very good info in there. Unfortunately, as with all electrical problems.... Very difficult to trace.

Kavik · « **Reply #19 on:** September 19, 2011, 08:16:35 PM »

LOL that's the same thread I got some info from the first time around. But also in there it talks about having a speedo cable, which this one doesn't.....I'm guessing it changed to electric half way through 98, as there is a different speed sensor for early 98 and late 98

hydrochloric · « **Reply #20 on:** September 19, 2011, 08:34:15 PM »

Hmm.... Then presumably the speed sensor is on the tranny proper. But then why the heck are there two malfunctions? I'd believe the IACV codes are caused by limp-home mode (kinda ironic), but why does a manual car even need a speed signal to function correctly? I can see in an auto, knowing what to change into, but on a manual... AFR ratios when cruising? It's odd.

Plus, why does limp home mode nearly kill our cars? On our jag it merely limits power, and that's an auto.

Anyway, ideally you could check the speed sensor output with an oscilloscope, but my guess is that's not really an option. So perhaps tracing for shorts/cuts. If possible, you could read ohms at the connections on the ECU, to see if the ECU even sees ANYTHING. It's possible (what with the engine swaps) the tranny wiring harness was pulled at one point and the wires finally failed.

Also, don't you love .5 model years? 944's had those. 1985.5. Total injector rework, facelift, interior change, engine change, suspension change... Body was the only same thing.

Kavik · « **Reply #21 on:** September 19, 2011, 08:51:48 PM »

yep, I went to 4pots to avoid the headaches of mid year brake pad changes on the bugeye LOL (it was a good excuse i thought)

it is weird that there's 2 codes if only 1 sensor....i just don't think I have the time to trace the wiring harness and rip apart the dash to check the back of the cluster before thursday

hydrochloric · « **Reply #22 on:** September 19, 2011, 09:09:14 PM »

Well.... A stupid question, but I suppose it should be asked... Are the green test plugs connected? I've heard they'll cause at least two of these codes.

From what I gleaned from my quick searching, there WERE multiple sensors on the cable-driven speedos, one in the cable and one in the dash cluster. I suppose it's possible they merely moved the cable mounted one to the transmission, and left the dash one too. It would certainly be a very Subaru-ish thing to do. Was it you who said "Subaru: wonderful ideas, horrible execution?" I thought I saw that quote in a couple signatures.

The truly weird thing is that all the searching I've done shows that if one of the speed sensor codes shows up, the other one always does too. That throws me for a loop since, if there were two sensors.... What's the likelihood of them failing together? I wonder if the ECU isn't still LOOKING for two signals, but they're BOTH coming from the one sensor. Again, kinda a Subaru-y thing to do, not change the ECU or flashing, just change some wires.

Really though, electrical maladies are the hardest thing to troubleshoot. It's not like you can follow the electron via eye, you know?

Kavik · « **Reply #23 on:** September 20, 2011, 10:38:46 AM »

not unless they connected themselves the night before all this started

I think you're second guess is probably right on the money, the one sensor probably trips both codes, rather than making a mid-year ecu change too

as for limp mode just about killing the cars: it doesn't seem to be as big of a problem if everything on your car is in perfect working order....but couple a 500rpm idle with bad grounds (which is way too common of an issue on subarus), or just about any other electrical, fuel or air issue and you're not going to have a happy car.

hydrochloric · « **Reply #24 on:** September 20, 2011, 06:08:11 PM »

It is amazing how much a ground matters, but you've never dealt with bad grounds until you've worked on a 6V car. My VW... Gah, if you have ANY contact resistance, it simply won't work. Luckily there's less wire in the VW than in our engine bays...

Is it still at a shop, or have you had further chance to look at it?

The reason I ask about the test connectors, not knowing your Aunt, maybe she noticed the plug, and thought, "Gee, I'll bet those are supposed to be connected." I know I would have done that if I hadn't read about them first.

Author Topic: need help - short time frame (Read 799 times)