Subaru BRZ STI Concept and scion FR-s details

[deadlydave]

Turning off the TC in a car with an LSD makes sense (unlike having TC in a car with a Torsen.  That must have been a crapload of engineering there, to keep the two systems from running into each other), but completely deactivating TC on an open diff?  Especially with significant power?  Inside wheel's spinning away every time you turn the wheel.

Yea, I'd like to hear about the engineering they did to make the 2 systems harmonious.  I don't care why an electronic nanny is there, if I'm paying for the car, it should be 100% user-defeatable.  The FM in my lexus said when the TC failed, to try to rock the car with the TC off.

Even with an LSD, Snow tires, and LBS in the trunk it couldn't get out of its own way in the snow with TC on. With the TC off, it was a riot though... until you needed to get up a hill or something.

Then you up the hill sideways?  You're one of those drift guys, isn't that your thing? 

[hydrochloric]

I suspect drifting isn't anyone's "thing" if you just wanna get somewhere....

[deadlydave]

Didn't want to start a new topic for this, but autoblog loves the shit out of the bro-z.  http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/26/2013-subaru-brz-first-drive-review-video/

[hydrochloric]

Pretty much everybody has now.  Also, almost everybody has said it's a bit lacking in power.

[Pitcrew]

Idk if it was said...but i read on speedhunters theres going to be the STi version. 250hp N/a. With carbon parts and a few other details. I would hope that doesnt push the price tag above 30k....

[hydrochloric]

There was an STi concept, wasn't there?  I remember it being non-turbo, though.

I also remember...  GReddy getting a BRZ to play with?  (Maybe it wasn't GReddy, HKS or something) and they planned on a turbo version.

[Pitcrew]

It's on speed hunters...

[deadlydave]

Pretty much everybody has now.  Also, almost everybody has said it's a bit lacking in power.
There was an STi concept, wasn't there?  I remember it being non-turbo, though.
I also remember...  GReddy getting a BRZ to play with?  (Maybe it wasn't GReddy, HKS or something) and they planned on a turbo version.

The more power argument is never-ending across the world, but most people need a little perspective.  It has prius tires, after all.

UDSM E30 M3:   192 horsepower, 2,865 lb, $35,000, 8.1s 0-60, .82g, 17/29 mpg ($66,272 in today's money!)
2013 USDM BRZ: 200 horsepower, 2,737 lb, $26,500, 7.3s 0-60, .92g, 22/30 mpg

I know they handed out some of the cars to tuners.  One thing I find interesting is when the motoring press talks to the BRZ engineers, they all hint at boost, when they talk to corporate 'reps', they all say no plans for boost.  With 2013 spelling the end for the Legacy GT, Subaru's down a turbo 'sporty' car.

[hydrochloric]

Well...  Short of the Impreza.

I get your point about the Ur-M3 vs. the BRZ, but the M3 was released in a time when that kind of performance was damn good for a 35k car.  The BRZ benefited from 30 years of development.

[deadlydave]

Well...  Short of the Impreza.

I get your point about the Ur-M3 vs. the BRZ, but the M3 was released in a time when that kind of performance was damn good for a 35k car.  The BRZ benefited from 30 years of development.

Certainly, but the BRZ has also been hampered by modern safety regulations.  I'm interested in how it stacks up in its price range with LSD's.  A base miata is 23,500...without LSD.  I'm pretty sure the base genesis, base camaro, and base mustang are all rocking open diffs too.  BMW doesn't sell anything with an LSD that doesn't have an M badge.

The impreza is not a sporty car in standard trim, the engine is smaller and less powerful than your Impreza Classic, and the car weighs more.  There really should be an 'rs' again.

[hydrochloric]

They're calling them "TS" now, right?  I have no clue why...

True on the base model, I hadn't realized you meant base models only (considering you were referencing an M-car).  It's impressive the weight is so low, to be sure.  The engine power, on the other hand, doesn't amaze me at all.

[Kavik]

I can understand the whole "make the car lighter and it doesn't have to be as powerful" thing....but that 0-60 time, to me anyway, says it still needs more power to weight

[hydrochloric]

I suppose it works though.  After all, that Miata thing never caught on, did it?

[Nitrous]

I suppose it works though.  After all, that Miata thing never caught on, did it?

on the street not so much since you look like such a doof in one (imo)... but in SCCA 

[deadlydave]

They're calling them "TS" now, right?  I have no clue why...

2.x 'i' models.The TS died in the 2nd gens sometime.

I can understand the whole "make the car lighter and it doesn't have to be as powerful" thing....but that 0-60 time, to me anyway, says it still needs more power to weight

They could just offer the car with an optional shorter the final drive or raise the rev limit a few hundred RPM.  But then the complaints would be about fuel economy vs price and power.  Inside Line and autoblog pointed out with the revlimit set at what it is, 2nd gear only holds you to like 59mph.  Slightly taller tires would also fix the 'numbers'.  The car is still selling like crazy in JDM land, and the imports here are <1 per dealer, they're all going to sell.   

[Kad]

With 2013 spelling the end for the Legacy GT, Subaru's down a turbo 'sporty' car.

2013 is the end of the Legacy GT? Bummer.

I've seen a lot of stuff about Toyota/Scion offering a supercharger kit for the FR-S that might add 50-80 HP, that should help, but I bet the car will be fine without it.  For extreme folks with deep (relatively) pockets, all of the engine mounting points on the FR-S are supposed to be the same as the EJ series so swaps aren't too hard.  The scion racing team has done one already. 

I think the best thing about this car is that it's Toyota and Subaru getting into the sporty coupe game again.  I wish it was cheaper so more people would pick it up and bring the enthusiasm I remember from the 90s back.

Edit: fixed link, sorry about that.

[hydrochloric]

Link doesn't work, FYI.

I would love a S/C, but it would be weird.  Bad fuel economy (compared to a turbo), extra torque on an engine that already has plenty, more charge heat...  I can't see the logic of an optional supercharger.  I mean, it would be awesome, but I'd be surprised.  Although Scion has a thing about offering superchargers, don't they.

Inside Line and autoblog pointed out with the revlimit set at what it is, 2nd gear only holds you to like 59mph.  Slightly taller tires would also fix the 'numbers'.

Wow, that's pretty good, 2nd gear only gets me to 45! 

[Pitcrew]

My 2nd gets me 50mph...

[hydrochloric]

Your.... rev limiter is higher than mine?  Or maybe I just don't want to go to it.

[RedRex]

Link doesn't work, FYI.

I would love a S/C, but it would be weird.  Bad fuel economy (compared to a turbo), extra torque on an engine that already has plenty, more charge heat...  I can't see the logic of an optional supercharger.  I mean, it would be awesome, but I'd be surprised.  Although Scion has a thing about offering superchargers, don't they.

A little off topic, but supercharged is the way to go.  Bad fuel economy? No. Extra stress? Nope. Heat; easily remedied. Even power throughout the band; that's a negative, if you're used to lag. 
Simple, yes. Inexpensive, check. Sounds a lot better? A given.
It's such a bad method that Audi has gone to 6 cylinders with superchargers. (Last 8 is the A8).

[Pitcrew]

Your.... rev limiter is higher than mine?  Or maybe I just don't want to go to it.

I go to it....6200rpm, then it hits.

[hydrochloric]

A little off topic, but supercharged is the way to go.  Bad fuel economy? No. Extra stress? Nope. Heat; easily remedied. Even power throughout the band; that's a negative, if you're used to lag. 
Simple, yes. Inexpensive, check. Sounds a lot better? A given.
It's such a bad method that Audi has gone to 6 cylinders with superchargers. (Last 8 is the A8).

I agree on all the points except the fuel economy.  Up until VERY recently, turbos were far more economical than superchargers.

Edit:  I sort of got confused, then I realized you thought I was knocking ALL superchargers.  I wasn't, I was saying it would be an odd choice on this particular car.  It's not like the boxer engine needs the extra low-end torque.

I go to it....6200rpm, then it hits.

Hmm.  Maybe my speedo is off.

[Pitcrew]

Maybe

[deadlydave]

Edit:  I sort of got confused, then I realized you thought I was knocking ALL superchargers.  I wasn't, I was saying it would be an odd choice on this particular car.  It's not like the boxer engine needs the extra low-end torque.

While not quite as bad as a Honda or RX-8, the 151tq is not that great.  I was kind of surprised, a Civic SI is around the same price and the 0-60 is 5.5s...again, that's the short gearing trick.

The advantage of a supercharger with a sufficient intercooler is you don't have to mod the exhaust system.  Jake made that point in his S2k build.

[hydrochloric]

Same reason I want that whine in my scooby...  I really need to find some engine management, though.