Subaru BRZ STI Concept and scion FR-s details

[hydrochloric]

There's too much bullshit in this thread to reply to directly now, so for me it ends at:  This car makes sense for Toyota/Scion.  Not for Subaru.  If you like it, by all means go buy it.  Remember Saab's 9-2x Aero ?  They were giving those things away, because they didn't mesh with Saabs typical audience.  Label branding has a big influence on sales.  Why is this venture in joint design/manufacturing any different ?  Tell me.

 To anyone bitching about:  "Why are we debating about a car that doesn't even have firm specs yet blah blah blah ?"  Because..., the manufacturer(s) of the car are the ones putting the information out there for potential buyers to see...  Bringing it to AutoShows, talking to MotorTrend, etc.  They WANT us to be talking about the car...pretty basic stuff here, really.  The only thing is, they want us to be super excited about the car, and that's just not always the case.

I'm pretty sure I said that exact thing about Toyota vs Subaru as the primary sellers.

As for discussing, AGAIN, I didn't want to quell discussion, I wanted to stop the endless shit-storm of people claiming XYZ.  I'll admit, there's patterns that point to bad things, but seeing as innovation (no, the ROFLSCOOB isn't really innovative, this is a general example) is, as Einstein put it, 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration...  You never know.  There's lots of stories of failures behind most successes.

In answer to your question:

When I was searching for my first car, I had three criteria it had to meet:
1. MANUAL.  I had been driving our Roadmaster.  Fun in a weird way, but not what I wanted (and the 15MPG didn't help).
2. NO FWD.  I wanted RWD, but I recognized that as a new driver, RWD, snow, testosterone, not such a good combo.  I left the possibility open, but it really didn't happen.
3. FUN.  I bet I could have found something that hit the first two without being fun (pickups come to mind instantly), and I didn't want that.  I knew if I had to haul shit, I still had the wagon, so I wasn't too worried about practicality.  Although, I admit, now that I have had a 4-door, 5 seater...  I know I wouldn't have liked my other choices.

At the time, I had 4k to spend.  I had been looking for months, going through various ideas/possibilities.  The first car I found and really wanted was a 94-ish 300ZX TT.  He was letting it go for 6k, but I had managed to talk him down to 4.  Unfortunately, work at the time decided to fuck up my paycheck and not pay me the extra I needed to get to 4k for another 5 weeks, so I lost that.

Next I was looking at Miatas.  SOOOO many in my range, but for some reason I had never really wanted one...

Then I found my car.  At the time, I was a Rally enthusiast, but it was by no means a selling point to me.  I'd've just as quickly had a Corvette as an EVO (I was even looking at a C4, too.  In hindsight, thank God I didn't get that).  But I saw, quite easily that this checked all three boxes and gave me some bonuses: great in snow, cheap, endlessly modifiable, good base to start working on my own car, and I later found out there was a great community, too.

So for me, my Subaru was right place, right time.  Again in hindsight, I wouldn't've traded it for any of the others, either.  It took my to a RallyX, got me into SCCA, and helped me meet some awesome people (and it convinced my dad to come with me to a track day at Monticello and get the Lotus he'd wanted for years).  Plus, it's a blast to drive, if only because it's so raw it doesn't matter it's as fast as a tricycle.  It's easy to work on, it's easy to toy with, it's, as people said, a Jack of all trades.  However, at the time, oh yeah, the FRENDZ-S would have checked all those boxes EASILY.

Don't you ever put me in the same category as some know-nothing piece of shit ricer.  I spent my days reciting lobe separation angles while you were busy playing Mario Kart.

...

So, expert.  YOU tell me what conclusions I SHOULD be drawing from the physical constraints of what's been revealed thus far.

Christ, again with the "expert" shit.  I got it, you know more about cars than I do, and probably ever will.  BUT THAT'S NOT ANYTHING NEAR WHAT I WAS GETTING ANNOYED ABOUT.  I welcomed it, in fact, assuming

I would absolutely love to hear how people think it could have been done better, not just how "Subaru did it wrong." 

If you used that experience to have suggested ways the WTFOMGBBQOYOTA could be improved with what it has, or listed ways it could have been done better, that'd be fine.  (I do note you have done this, now.  But when I wrote the original bit, it was still everybody dissing the thing and how every other maker, who's been doing this longer, will do it better.  No, really?)

So I really wasn't trying to "get" you to draw any conclusions.  I was trying to get you to either hold off on drawing conclusions until the thing has actually been produced, or use whatever conclusions you already had to speculate ways it could be improved, not ways it was destined to fail.  If you truly felt that it was anyway, it would still be commendable to offer some insight that others could build on.

I wasn't putting in the same category as Hella, I was putting you at an opposite extreme from him (speculated anyway, since so far the only reason he crawled out of the woodwork was to pout at me).

Also.  I never owned an N64.  Or a NES, SNES, Dreamcast, Genesis, Playstation, PS2, PS3, Xbox, Xbox 360, or even a windows PC until the last few years.  So thank you for making more blanket statements about how much better you are than everyone younger than you at everything and how stupid I am for having been born many years after your parents fucked!  Yes I'm aware that is a personal attack, but seeing as you chose to attack me, I'll respond in kind.  Stupid response, knee-jerk response, but I will, because this is ridiculous.



You know, I knew I would piss some people off, but this is fucking stupid.  I was trying to direct the conversation away from needless complaining about how it's all wrong, to something at least possibly constructive.  Yet, apparently, most people took it personally.  I have no beef with anyone about how you feel about the BRO-Z, mkay?  I know people who think ALL Subarus are over-hyped fanboi cars, or at least badly produced mixes of good and bad ideas (Styles?  You out there?  ).  I was just hoping to see something more than endless yelling over what Subaru has done wrong, and how everything about the FUCT is stupid.

I'm losing interest with this.  Until there's more info to build on, or the BurntRiceZhooter comes out, there really won't be much improvement, I don't think.  Maybe then it'll be worth it to talk about it.

[RedRoof2]

Get laid.

[spoolordie]

Your so crabby all the time you should take your own advice.  "Oh no he didnt"

Back on to the car subject, I like the styling of the car well atleast some of the concept Toyota stuff. Thank god toyota's actually releasing a car thats meant for driving enthusiasts.   Because there last car they had that was "sporty" was the celica.  What a joke from the factory.  Now they have the camry S or whatever it is.....lame, dont bring lexus into this because i actually like the IS300.  RWD coupe with good styling and a decent motor.  And before you say the motor is garbage, Id wait till you have concrete info.

Will i buy one of these, prolly not but im sure theyd be fun. Maybe ill buy one and hella flush it to anger everyone hahaha
Fuck all this whining im gonna by a 2011 Manly Blue 5.0 Ford Mustang GT and fucking out perform everyone

[RedRoof2]

Your so crabby all the time you should take your own advice.  "Oh no he didnt"

Fuck all this whining im gonna by a 2011 Manly Blue 5.0 Ford Mustang GT and fucking out perform everyone

Yeah you're right.  How could I have been so blind.  Thanks for showing me the way.  I"ll advise the girlfriend to crank up the output.

For once you're probably right.  A newer Mustang GT would probably outperform almost everyone on this board.

For the motor, again, show me info.  That's right, there is almost none available.
Again, only the PHYSICAL CONSTRAINTS of the general specifications are available right now:
2.0L, Direct Injection, Naturally Aspirated, 2700lbs.

Could it be a contender to a Civic Si?  Sure, with RWD to boot. 
Have I said before that I will PROBABLY LIKE THIS CAR?  Yes.  I did.
Will it stack up strongly against other competition in its class?  I don't believe it will. 
How do I know this before concrete specs are released?  Look at the constraints of the general specifications that have been released and extrapolate from there.  Unless Subaru devised a method to extract sick horsepower out of a lower-revving small displacement N/A engine, (which goes against lots of laws of physics), then I already know the range of power output.  Shorter gearing will exacerbate the inability of the DI engine to rev high.  A portly curb weight (2700lbs IS portly in comparison) won't help matters.

If you can't under these engineering challenges that Subaru and Toyota are attempting to address to make this car sellable, I don't know what to tell you.  You probably should stick to playing Forza and leave tech discussions to men.

[hydrochloric]

Get laid.

I haven't given a single piece of karma in this thread, mostly because I've been the instigator, and I don't think that would be fair.  But that...

Is deserving of a +1, if only for the conciseness.

Thanks for calling us idiots again, while repeating all the shit I was railing against.  Some of us don't have the benefit of decades of experience to use to be an asshole.  God this thread hit NASTICOCK fast.

[RedRoof2]

I haven't given a single piece of karma in this thread, mostly because I've been the instigator, and I don't think that would be fair.  But that...

Is deserving of a +1, if only for the conciseness.

Thanks for calling us idiots again, while repeating all the shit I was railing against.

  Anytime.

+1 for your sense of humor.

As for repeating stuff you're railing against...   what exactly are you railing against. 
You said: "I was trying to get people to stop coming up with whatever bullshit they THINK it will or won't have, will or won't do wrong."
And you also said: " I would absolutely love to hear how people think it could have been done better, not just how "Subaru did it wrong."

Well, I'm simply stating what it will HAVE based on what's been revelaled and what the mechanical limitations of that ARE.  I don't need a complete spec printout - there is only so much you can do with the items they've listed.  If you want specs, fine.  Here's what I think the car will do:

It'll have between 180-220hp, use premium fuel and have a rev limit most likely lower than 7000rpm. With an 86x86mm square bore/stroke, that's generally the accepted level of redline on a port-injected engine.  With the next generation of DI, 7k may be possible.  It sounds like Toyota had a hand in development, as that's the same bore/stroke for many of their previous 2.0L powerplants.  It has dual AVCS, but it probably won't have variable lift, unless they're developing something I don't know about.  If it does, it'll be more toward the 220hp side of the spectrum.  We know it'll have 215/45 front tires and 225/45 rear tires, which means it will not have STi power or torque levels.  Not with RWD.  From that tire size I can extrapolate the top speed will probably be above 130mph and the transmission SHOULD be a 6 speed, even though the shorter gearing will be noticeable with the lack of high-rpm ability.  With the 2700lb curb weight, same tire size all around and chassis layout, it will be a Front-Mid layout, similar to the 350z's chassis.  Weight distribution will probably be within 10 points of even - I'm betting on 53/47 or better.  Those are my expectations.  Time will tell how accurate they are.

I've mentioned several times the alternate powerplants that could have gone onboard and we already know what Subaru could've stuffed in there for an engine, but didn't.  With Toyota's partnership, they could've have stuffed a 3uz/5uz V8 onboard.  They could've used the new 2grfe V6's that dump loads of power out.  A 2AZ-FE 2.4L inline four would've made it the perfect 240sx reincarnation,  but with a -G cylinder head that allowed it to breathe.  Destroke the same motor to 2.2 or 2.1 on a G cylinder head and we'd have had one hell of a motor.  Forced induction duty would've been wonderful under that powerplant.  The older but venerable 2zzge could also have been installed, in Lotus-Elise guise, packing 215bhp and an 8500rpm redline mated to a 6 speed,  just like the IS200 of old.  The last-gen 3SGTE could've been installed from the latest Caldina, packing 265bhp in a twin-scroll turbocharged package. 
Subaru too, could have contributed better to the design, with a tweaked H6 engine, blatting a staccato burst out a pair of twin pipes, like a Porsche.  Any number of their turbo powerplants, starting with the JDM EJ207 could've been used, offering an 8000rpm redline to go with 280bhp. 

They used none of those suggestions. 

[deadlydave]

They used none of those suggestions.

haha, yea, they do look kind of silly when you can rattle off a list of great possibilities that were all clearly ignored.

The CAFE future restrictions, my guess, are primarily to blame.  Subaru wanted a fun car that was different, and didn't want to go the pussy fwd route.  Toyota is so uninspired, they had to outsource a 'fun rwd' car to a company with no current experience in the realm.  I just hope subaru's design guys don't make it too frumpy.

[RedRoof2]

The looks of the Chassis give it a Toyota-influenced edge.  Has the angles usually seen from products of Toyota's Calty design studio.  I'd bet on Toyota being the ones doing most of the chassis design, using Subaru's engine as a blueprint.  No idea whose gearbox they're using though.  Probably a modified Subaru unit, sans front shafts I'd guess.  Either that or Toyota's adapting one of their units with a different input shaft and bellhousing to bolt up to a Subie block.

In my head, it's already been modified.  The Flat 4 has been pitched, in favor of a 1GRFE or a 2GRFSE.  Direct injected, longitudinally mounted, 309hp, gobs of torque everywhere and an engine bay large enough to accomodate it.  It's a bit on the tall side, but i'd cowl the hood if necessary. 

Even better, pitch the entire piston engine concept and toss in a peripheral port Tri-Rotor.  Half the weight, little complexity, devote the rest of the space to cooling the bastard down.  Done.

[TheBigChill]

 I think what really bothers me, is that it seems both of the involved parties in this joint effort totally neglected to apply their proven and time tested strengths.  I know Toyota can produce a truly dynamic chassis with ease, so I'm sure it'll handle well.  The powerplant... I just don't understand.  Both Toyota and Subaru have so much more to offer, and instead they came up with this half-baked offering where neither Manufacturer can shine.


 

Even better, pitch the entire piston engine concept and toss in a peripheral port Tri-Rotor.  Half the weight, little complexity, devote the rest of the space to cooling the bastard down.  Done.

 ^   The general public will never welcome something like the 20b.  While I like the idea, the rotary scares people.  Even factory trained Technicians lack the basic understanding required to diagnose, service, and rebuild.  You've got an unfair advantage being Puerto Rican.  You guys come out the womb carrying rolled-up porting templates in one hand and a 3-Rotor Shaft Separator Tool in the other.

[RedRoof2]

^   The general public will never welcome something like the 20b.  While I like the idea, the rotary scares people.  Even factory trained Technicians lack the basic understanding required to diagnose, service, and rebuild.  You've got an unfair advantage being Puerto Rican.  You guys come out the womb carrying rolled-up porting templates in one hand and a 3-Rotor Shaft Separator Tool in the other.

You're right.  Most people are fucking idiots anyway.  It's not that they can't understand a rotary - it's a zillion times simpler than understanding a piston engine.  It's that they don't want to change. 
Besides, if they stuffed a turbo 4 into this thing, it might be too fun to drive in its first year.  We already know Toyota and Subaru won't allow that.  See the MR-S Spyder and 08 WRX as a great example on how both marques castrated a well known and highly regarded platform with an embarrasingly limp redesign.

[hydrochloric]

I've mentioned several times the alternate powerplants that could have gone onboard and we already know what Subaru could've stuffed in there for an engine, but didn't.  With Toyota's partnership, they could've have stuffed a 3uz/5uz V8 onboard.  They could've used the new 2grfe V6's that dump loads of power out.  A 2AZ-FE 2.4L inline four would've made it the perfect 240sx reincarnation,  but with a -G cylinder head that allowed it to breathe.  Destroke the same motor to 2.2 or 2.1 on a G cylinder head and we'd have had one hell of a motor.  Forced induction duty would've been wonderful under that powerplant.  The older but venerable 2zzge could also have been installed, in Lotus-Elise guise, packing 215bhp and an 8500rpm redline mated to a 6 speed,  just like the IS200 of old.  The last-gen 3SGTE could've been installed from the latest Caldina, packing 265bhp in a twin-scroll turbocharged package. 
Subaru too, could have contributed better to the design, with a tweaked H6 engine, blatting a staccato burst out a pair of twin pipes, like a Porsche.  Any number of their turbo powerplants, starting with the JDM EJ207 could've been used, offering an 8000rpm redline to go with 280bhp. 

They used none of those suggestions. 

I did notice the powerplant ideas, I agree with most of them.  I whole-heartedly support the H6 idea, since Subaru's last attempt to use an H6 for "sporting" purposes was the beautiful but heavy and fragile SVX, and we all know how well that worked...  A proper flat-six, especially since the H6s they've made so far have made pretty significant power figures, tied with the direct injection could provide quite the torque-monster, before turbos are even considered.  If they actually stuff an EZ30 or 36 in there, I will be leaping out of my skin with happiness, since it would (theoretically) make it a proper competitor to the more GT-ish 350, etc, while still maintaining some real grunt.  I would also be doing my best to procure one.

I suppose it IS entirely possible they have other variants planned (we already know of the STi concept which, to me, is the wrong way to go for this).  I think they've kinda screwed themselves with anything other than Subaru engines, though, because I don't think there's any other type that could fit under that hood now.

I think what really bothers me, is that it seems both of the involved parties in this joint effort totally neglected to apply their proven and time tested strengths.  I know Toyota can produce a truly dynamic chassis with ease, so I'm sure it'll handle well.  The powerplant... I just don't understand.  Both Toyota and Subaru have so much more to offer, and instead they came up with this half-baked offering where neither Manufacturer can shine.

This did confuse me some, I admit.  Not necessarily why they chose the engine they chose, but from everything I've seen, Toyota contributed the direct injection and some chassis tuning.  That means that Subaru more or less developed everything.  What's up with that?  A joint venture means both groups participating, not one putting in 20%....

My guess is, Red is right.

...if they stuffed a turbo 4 into this thing, it might be too fun to drive in its first year.  We already know Toyota and Subaru won't allow that.  See the MR-S Spyder and 08 WRX as a great example on how both marques castrated a well known and highly regarded platform with an embarrasingly limp redesign.

It's a strategy other companies have employed, too.  Make it not quite as good as it can be, then release the version everyone really wanted.  Porsche and Ferrari both LEAP to mind.  430, 430 Scud...  Cayman, Cayman S, Cayman R...  Even Ford has done it with the Focus RS, after we Americans have been clamoring for it for what, 6 years?  As James May put it, "It's a bit like 'Taste the difference' cheese".

I hadn't really considered the H6 idea up until very recently, mostly because I had sort of forgotten Subaru made one...  I guess because the image they want to maintain is that of turbo-4 cars.  Better MPG, too.  But man, an EZ36, twin turbo, 350HP in a Toyota-tuned RWD chassis with 6-speed and LSD would be AWESOME.

[deadlydave]

I think what really bothers me, is that it seems both of the involved parties in this joint effort totally neglected to apply their proven and time tested strengths.  I know Toyota can produce a truly dynamic chassis with ease, so I'm sure it'll handle well.  The powerplant... I just don't understand.  Both Toyota and Subaru have so much more to offer, and instead they came up with this half-baked offering where neither Manufacturer can shine.

Toyota USED to be able to produce a dynamic chassis.  They only 2 cars they have now that are even close is the ISF and the LFA.  The cheaper of which starts at 2.5 - 3 times as much as the Subyoda.

All this talk and the stupid car still doesn't have a name for the US market yet.  Infuriating!

[TheBigChill]

Toyota USED to be able to produce a dynamic chassis.  They only 2 cars they have now that are even close is the ISF and the LFA.  The cheaper of which starts at 2.5 - 3 times as much as the Subyoda.

All this talk and the stupid car still doesn't have a name for the US market yet.  Infuriating!

  Toyota didn't quite lose the ability to build these types of cars, per say.  Toyota still knows what they're doing, and I'm sure they still have a crew of anxious pencil tapping japanese engineers that are just begging for a greenlight to build a proper sporty RWD coupe.  Toyota simply looked at the type of cars that they sell high quantity of (bland & dependable family haulers) and catered to those folks more by eliminating their offerings for the enthusiast.  That's why this car can't even wear a Toyota badge, and has to wear the Scion name:  Toyota's little A.D.D. stricken brother with the crooked hat.  Had Toyota actually put their all into this, it could've been more than a 18 year olds play toy. 

[RedRoof2]

That's why this car can't even wear a Toyota badge, and has to wear the Scion name:  Toyota's little A.D.D. stricken brother with the crooked hat.  Had Toyota actually put their all into this, it could've been more than a 18 year olds play toy.

Bingo.  A genuine Toyota product would've required bigger marketing, more features and a more demanding demographic.  It seems they don't want to put a significant investment into this one - just let Subaru take the risk and the fall.  Can't blame them.  This is pretty weaksauce next to the IS-F and GS series -  their other marketable RWD options.  Toyota's become synonymous with Dependable, Economical and Sensible.  Scion and Lexus are brands that have enough pizazz to take a risk here and there.  To put something flashy and impractical like this car into a Toyota showroom with a Toyota badge would probably scare off their Buick/Lincoln Towncar retiree demographic and the flood of soccer moms.  Miss Jane Doe would think twice about dragging 15 year old Johnny into a showroom if an exciting, dangerous and fast sportscar were parked right next to the new minivan she's looking at.

[spoolordie]

[Nismonic]

Fantastic! I bet it gets great mileage too. Sign me up for one.

[skyphix]

You know, I didn't even notice the Impreza bumper.

Good find. I bet my wife would be interested in the FR-S if it ended up like that - her first car was a Geo Prism, parts were super cheap, and it got 30+ mpg.

[deadlydave]

New info and concept pictures:
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/16/subaru-brz-concept-sti-la-2011/

Not bad, but Subaru admitted the production base version would probably not look too much like this.

[RedRoof2]

Years ago, we'd have ridiculed the bastard that put a quad-tip exhaust on a naturally aspirated 2 liter.  Now they're coming from the factory that way.

Stop fucking around and put a REAL engine in it.  It's going to be the little train that couldn't.

[deadlydave]

Looks like Toyota Europe gets the first crack at selling the GT86 beginning next year.  No, that's not a typo.
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw6WnrqMDTw&feature=player_embedded

Autoblog Article:
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/26/europes-toyota-gt-86-sports-car-revealed-arrives-june-2012/

Article text, for you lazy folks:

It's no secret that the Toyota FT-86 will finally make its production-spec debut next week at the Tokyo Motor Show, and ahead of that, the automaker's UK office has released the first official photos and some initial specs. In Europe, the car will officially be called the Toyota GT 86. In Japan, however, the car will simply be called 86.

Cutting right to the chase, here are the specs that are now official, from the Toyota UK announcement. Obviously, there's more to come:

    * 2.0-liter boxer with D4-S injection (direct and port injected)
    * 197 hp @ 7,000 rpm and 151 lb-ft (205 Nm) @6,600 rpm
    * 6-speed manual or automatic transmissions
    * 17-inch wheel/tire package standard
    * 4,240mm (167 in.) long, 1285mm (50.6 in.) high, 2,570mm (101 in.) wide
    * 53:47 front-to-rear weight distribution
    * 475mm (18.7 in.) center of gravity

As demonstrated in the photos, everything is basically in line with what we've seen so far in the various leaked materials. So, start getting excited. In addition to the sharp styling outside, the interior looks the business, and the "86" fender logo is just plain cool. The GT 86 goes on sale in the UK next June.

We'll be on hand in Tokyo for the official reveal at the end of the coming week, with plenty more then. In the meantime, peruse the photo gallery, then hit the jump for a video and the full press release.

The mentioned fender logo (like a free subaru advert on the side):

[phong]

For the driftatos...
http://youtu.be/0Jr-iYAtpWM

UK version GT86 came in at 2601LBS.

[hydrochloric]

200HP ain't bad out of a 2 liter....  But what's with this port AND direct injection?

7k peak isn't bad.  Sounds like it might be able to hit 9k?  Perhaps that was the goal behind the port and direct?

And GT 86?  Really Toyota?  I know we already knew it was supposed to be a "spiritual successor" to the AE86, but you might as well be tattooing it onto our eyeballs.

[deadlydave]

200HP ain't bad out of a 2 liter....  But what's with this port AND direct injection?  7k peak isn't bad.  Sounds like it might be able to hit 9k?  Perhaps that was the goal behind the port and direct?  And GT 86?  Really Toyota?  I know we already knew it was supposed to be a "spiritual successor" to the AE86, but you might as well be tattooing it onto our eyeballs.

We still don't know what the scion or subaru version are being called.

UK version GT86 came in at 2601LBS.

2600 pounds with 200hp, that's going to be fun.  That's slightly more power with slightly less weight than the E30 M3's had.  Sounds like the marketing department hasn't snatched defeat from the jaws of victory (or the engineers) this time.

[RedRoof2]

2600 pounds with 200hp, that's going to be fun.  That's slightly more power with slightly less weight than the E30 M3's had.  Sounds like the marketing department hasn't snatched defeat from the jaws of victory (or the engineers) this time.

Don't worry.  US DOT and EPA standards will take care of that for you.  I'm expecting the US variant to hit the scales several hundred pounds heavier.

Still not impressed.

[hydrochloric]

You might know.  What's this direct and port injection?  Is it saying that one engine employs both types (direct at low-rpm for better MPG, port for higher-RPM operation) or that they'll offer two engines?  Is it even possible to run both types off one fuel system, considering the massive pressure differences?