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February 07, 2012, 11:18:59 AM
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Author Topic: Another engine build for my STI.  (Read 3235 times)

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Offline jays05

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Another engine build for my STI.
« on: October 16, 2009, 05:35:46 PM »
For those that don't know, the engine in my STI was destroyed back in May, not long after it was built.  It was a standard 2.5L build, 100mm CP pistons, Pauter Rods, stock crank, minor head porting work, supertech valves+valvetrain, and cosworth cams.  I was running a custom 35r kit and FMIC made by Synapse Motorsport in Scotia.

Junior at The Shop CT tuned it and it made 543whp on 93oct at 23-24psi and 614whp on VP C16 at 27-28psi.  Actually it wasn't picking up any more power over 26psi and we figured the turbo was maxed out...  26psi was 611whp and 28psi was 614whp.

I made a couple quarter mile passes, one full run on Sunoco 116 with a blown out header gasket netted 10.7 @ 132.  I made four full passes on the 93oct map - 11.4 @ 124, 11.0 @ 124, 11.1 @ 121 (blew out another header gasket), and 11.0 @ 124 again.  Then the whole fucken motor grenaded.  It had 5k miles on it.

It dropped a valve while rolling away from a stoplight by the carwash on central ave.  Pretty much everything was destroyed, the only reusable parts were the cams, headstuds, and the rods although the rods need to be reconditioned.  Three valves dropped into cyl #4, things got good and mashed up, and parts went back through the intake manifold into the other cylinders.

Ron @ Raw Performance built the motor so I had Synapse pull the motor and send it back to him.  He uhh, turned into a dick.  Two weeks after he signed for the delivery I called him and he said "Oh I just received it, I'm opening up the package now".  He called me after he got the heads off and said that he'd tear it the rest of the way down, send me pics, and call me to discuss next steps.  Two weeks later he sent me an email asking if I'd decided what I wanted to do yet...  I was like yeah, you were supposed to send me pics and call me.

He told me that flat foot shifting was destroying the rod bearings, that Synapse contaminated the oil when installing the engine, and that the valveseats fell out of the heads because Applied Flow Technology installed them incorrectly.  Actually he blamed Synapse before he ever tore down the bottom end which is total BS since there was no evidence on the bearings of oil contamination.  He then offered to sell me a new engine, and I asked for all the parts back.

Here are the pics from Ron






When I got the parts back Junior and I put the #4 rod back on the crank and there was a ridiculous amount of side clearence on the rod.  Which explains why the rod bearings are only worn down on the outer edges and not in the middle - they were bouncing back and forth cause Ron never checked the side clearence.  The cap side of the bearings was just as bad.  Now if FFS and knock was tearing up the bearings why would the cap side of the bearings be all torn up, and again only on the outer edges?

As for the valves dropping, Junior thinks that the seat broke and fell out because there was too much seat pressure (another thing Ron didn't check) but I kinda think that it was because my exhaust valves were not made from Inconel.  Supertech actually tells their customers now not to use SS exhaust valves in turbo motors even though they still sell them.

New build info is in the next post...

Offline jays05

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2009, 06:04:08 PM »
My tuner and friend Junior works at TurboTrix Racing a few days a week and they have a full machine shop in-house, so I'm having them build my next motor.

07 STI block bored to 99.75mm
Manley 99.75mm pistons
Reconditioned Pauter Rods
New OEM crank
Cosworth bearings
08 STI 11mm oil pump

06 WRX Heads
Ferrea Competition Plus +0.5mm valves/valvetrain
Cosworth 278/274 AVCS Cams

I'm really psyched about the heads because they are a better starting point than STI heads.  They have a better combustion chamber design and a bit higher CR.  Also, they did a lot more porting work to the heads than were done to my old heads, even though they were only supposed to clean up the casting lines.








At this point the heads are done and the bottom end should be done any day now.

Offline boxersix

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2009, 06:11:50 PM »
Jay,

  Wish you best of luck with this motor this time around  :laugh:  I drive by Synapse now and then and have seen the poor car sitting there for some time now but didn't bother to ask around the grape vine as to what happened. 

-Adam @ Rennessy Race Fab

Offline jays05

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2009, 06:18:05 PM »
Thanks Adam.  I have a good feeling about this motor since the same person is building, installing, and tuning it.  I kinda knew my Raw Performance motor was doomed from day 1.  When Ron built it he told me that the crank wouldn't spin the first time he dropped it into the block, but it spun the second time he put it in, so it must have been a hard chunk of assembly lube (this is after I told him I thought the crank was bent).  And when Synapse received it, Paul was like "dude your motor is really hard to turn over" and when I cut open my used oil filters they were all full of metal shavings.  I just kept changing the oil/filter a lot and tried telling myself that if there wasn't stuff to catch in the filter, we wouldn't need one.  And actually the day before it dropped a valve I was saying that I thought the motor needed to come apart for new bearings.

I am gonna talk with Junior tomorrow about getting the car transported down to The Shop in CT for the motor install...  I'm afraid this is gonna be a $400 tow.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 06:22:37 PM by jays05 »

Offline idipskoalmint

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2009, 07:12:22 PM »
Jay -

Best of luck with this build.

If there's anything I can do to help, please let me know.

Matthew
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2952983/

"Subaru - the one STI you don't have to be ashamed of for having!"

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Offline M2KS

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2009, 07:29:56 PM »
I would mf that guy everywhere and anywhere. No one should ever do business with him at all. 5k on the motor, wtf...
Best of luck man, those numbers were sick  :buck2:
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Offline boxersix

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2009, 10:37:10 PM »
Thanks Adam.  I have a good feeling about this motor since the same person is building, installing, and tuning it.  I kinda knew my Raw Performance motor was doomed from day 1.  When Ron built it he told me that the crank wouldn't spin the first time he dropped it into the block, but it spun the second time he put it in, so it must have been a hard chunk of assembly lube (this is after I told him I thought the crank was bent).  And when Synapse received it, Paul was like "dude your motor is really hard to turn over" and when I cut open my used oil filters they were all full of metal shavings.  I just kept changing the oil/filter a lot and tried telling myself that if there wasn't stuff to catch in the filter, we wouldn't need one.  And actually the day before it dropped a valve I was saying that I thought the motor needed to come apart for new bearings.

I am gonna talk with Junior tomorrow about getting the car transported down to The Shop in CT for the motor install...  I'm afraid this is gonna be a $400 tow.

Why not flat it yourself?  Rent a trailer and truck it.  TS isn't that far.  I've gotta flat the A28 996 to EPL when I get done repairing that cars' motor mess to check the tune on the motronic.

I thought this guy you had build the last motor was some top subaru guy??   Gave you zero machine specs on anything(parts, clearances, etc, etc) in your motor?  Uggg.   Hard turning crank would have been point blank to tear it back down again.

Damn dood.  Again, hope this one works out much better.

Offline STiPete

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2009, 10:27:34 AM »
Wow, dude..  that's really shitty   :| 
You're way overdue for this to finally go right and not be dicked around!
Good luck   :mrgreen:  that thing is a beast! 

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Offline jays05

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2009, 11:02:47 AM »
Why not flat it yourself?  Rent a trailer and truck it.  TS isn't that far.  I've gotta flat the A28 996 to EPL when I get done repairing that cars' motor mess to check the tune on the motronic.

I thought this guy you had build the last motor was some top subaru guy??   Gave you zero machine specs on anything(parts, clearances, etc, etc) in your motor?  Uggg.   Hard turning crank would have been point blank to tear it back down again.

Damn dood.  Again, hope this one works out much better.

Ron has a pretty good reputation in the subaru community but what I've learned is that I should never do business with somebody who thinks they are "one of the best subaru engine builders in the world" as Ron calls himself.  I do know that he ran .003" piston-to-wall, .0015" mains, and .0018" rod bearing clearence, and that he tends to run the ring end gap tighter than what CP recommends.  But there is no way he could have checked the rod side clearence, and I don't see any other reason for the bearings to be worn only on the outside edges.

If I had a truck capable of towing my car I might consider renting a trailer.

Offline boxersix

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2009, 01:12:58 AM »
Ron has a pretty good reputation in the subaru community but what I've learned is that I should never do business with somebody who thinks they are "one of the best subaru engine builders in the world" as Ron calls himself.  I do know that he ran .003" piston-to-wall, .0015" mains, and .0018" rod bearing clearence, and that he tends to run the ring end gap tighter than what CP recommends.  But there is no way he could have checked the rod side clearence, and I don't see any other reason for the bearings to be worn only on the outside edges.

If I had a truck capable of towing my car I might consider renting a trailer.

Your Pauter rods have something special about them on their thrust that makes it impossible to measure side clearance?  Interesting.

  Bearings worn in the manner you described could be due to numerous reasons.  Improperly torqued rod fasteners distorting the cap, improper crank journal surface(convex/concave from improper machining/polishing), rod side loading.  Just some reasons, lots of others, not saying any were the cause at all.  No way to really tell at this point though.

When you get the rods reconditioned, I recommend using an L19 fastener, or 625, in your next build if you don't already have it.  Typically only another couple hundred bucks more vs standard arp 2000 hardware, and the hardware should be replaced due to the failure.  Not sure what your pauters came with though.  I'm sure the boys @ TT know, but make sure they mag and/or xray the rods as well just to be safe.  also that whatever fastener you do decide to use, make sure that fastener type is used for the recondition process as they all yield different final distortions of the rod big end :)

Just some more blah blah crap from me, hahaha.  You've got some serious time and heart into this car.  I gotta give you credit for that. Again I really hope she'll run good for you this time around.  Be nice to actually drive your car for awhile, I know how that feeling goes :(

Offline ucwellsy

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 09:42:38 AM »
A "NEW" Crank is a good place to start.  :uglystupid2:
Good Luck Jay.
 
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Offline jays05

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 08:28:07 PM »
Your Pauter rods have something special about them on their thrust that makes it impossible to measure side clearance?  Interesting.

What I meant was, when we put the rod back on the crank it looked like 0.1" side clearence.  It was ridiculous.  So he must not have measured it.  I never got to look at the rod bearings out of the earlier synapse build, but my original rod bearings were worn on both the outer edges and right in the middle.  I'm guessing that the crank was out of spec from the start.  Jr told me that some of the early 05s had bad cranks from the factory.

The new motor has a new crank.  Hopefully I'll have some more pics tomorrow.

Offline jays05

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2009, 03:38:52 PM »
More delays...  Manley sent 9.5 CR pistons.  With these heads the CR would have ended up above 10:1...  I wouldn't even need a turbo with those pistons LOL.

Other than that everything is ready to go.  Once we get the right pistons they can bore the block, balance the rotating assembly, and do the final engine build up.  I was hoping the engine would be in the car by the end of the week but it seems a lot less likely now.

Offline flutyr525

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2009, 05:50:39 PM »
cant wait to c the final product! :-D shitty about having to build yet again another engine but this one sounds like the best of the build :mrgreen:
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Offline jays05

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2009, 08:12:22 PM »
Yeah I think this motor will outperform the last one.  Better combustion chamber design, better port work, and a higher redline...   although the ferrea valvetrain and 11mm oil pump will give more parasitic loss.  I'm expecting less power on 93oct than the old setup and more on c16, with a wider powerband in both cases.  With these heads and the Manley 8.5 CR pistons, the CR should end up a little over 9:1.  Hoping for 140 traps this time :)

Offline boxersix

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2009, 10:28:15 PM »
More delays...  Manley sent 9.5 CR pistons.  With these heads the CR would have ended up above 10:1...  I wouldn't even need a turbo with those pistons LOL.

Other than that everything is ready to go.  Once we get the right pistons they can bore the block, balance the rotating assembly, and do the final engine build up.  I was hoping the engine would be in the car by the end of the week but it seems a lot less likely now.

Awe, what's wrong with that  :laugh:  Sucker would be a torque monster hahaha!

 It'll be good to see this monster up and running again.  More vids of watching the tach pin out!

Offline jays05

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2009, 10:54:06 PM »
My car should be at The Shop in CT tomorrow if it isn't there already, and Manley HQ is in Jersey so the piston mix-up should only set us back a day or two.

Junior likes the lower compression motors.  He actually wanted to have Manley make some custom lower CR pistons for my motor to bring it down towards 8:1 but I convinced him otherwise.  9:1 will probably mean a lot less ignition timing on 93oct.

Offline flutyr525

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2009, 11:43:34 AM »
Yeah I think this motor will outperform the last one.  Better combustion chamber design, better port work, and a higher redline...   although the ferrea valvetrain and 11mm oil pump will give more parasitic loss.  I'm expecting less power on 93oct than the old setup and more on c16, with a wider powerband in both cases.  With these heads and the Manley 8.5 CR pistons, the CR should end up a little over 9:1.  Hoping for 140 traps this time :)

 :-o cant wait to see if you achieve your goal  :mrgreen:
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Offline jays05

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2009, 03:40:42 PM »
My car is at The Shop in CT now... it was not picked up until yesterday.  Fingers crossed for some good news this week.

And flurty I think 140 traps are not so far off.  When it made 614whp on c16 and I took Junior for a ride, he said it was an easy 137-138mph car.  When I trapped 132 it had a blown uppipe gasket and wasn't making good boost until 5th gear...  and with that leak fixed I actually went 3mph faster in the eighth mile on straight 93oct.

Offline flutyr525

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2009, 04:16:33 PM »
My car is at The Shop in CT now... it was not picked up until yesterday.  Fingers crossed for some good news this week.

And flurty I think 140 traps are not so far off.  When it made 614whp on c16 and I took Junior for a ride, he said it was an easy 137-138mph car.  When I trapped 132 it had a blown uppipe gasket and wasn't making good boost until 5th gear...  and with that leak fixed I actually went 3mph faster in the eighth mile on straight 93oct.

oh i dont doubt you will have problems achieving 140+ trap speed...i just cant wait to c this happen :D

do you think this will finished to make it to the final test and tune day at lebanon on saturday?
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Offline jays05

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2009, 04:27:38 PM »
Probably not because...  I am moving to SC.  Real soon.  This weekend I will move into a temporary apartment in Fort Mill, SC which is about a half hour south of Charlotte.  But I will still have my place up here for another 2-3 months and will be coming back for a couple days every month to check up on things and get ready for the final move.  I've been trying to get the car done this week so I can drive it down to SC.  Otherwise I will drive my other daily driver down to SC and have work ship my STI down to SC when it is done.  I would like to run the car at the Subaru vs Mitsubishi shootout in NC in mid-november but it is starting to look like that won't happen.  Jr just let me know that we're still waiting on pistons.  He did check the car out though and said it looks 100% ready to go once the motor is done.

Offline mike9402

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2009, 03:34:19 PM »
awesome! keep us posted
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Offline jays05

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2009, 07:12:51 PM »
So those cylinder head pics that I posted on page 1 were not even my heads  :x

I noticed somebody on nasioc had posted pics of the exact same heads back in august.  The combustion chambers had scratches and blemishes in the same spots and everything, and the spark plug orientation was the same.  And they were posted by somebody who works at Turbotrix.  I asked Junior about it and he said oops I must have sent you the wrong pics, and he sent me some new pics of different heads.  And we are going on one month of waiting for pistons.  I am starting to get a bad taste in my mouth about this whole build.   :x

Offline KA_Killuh

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2009, 08:43:42 PM »
That's pretty sketchy about the heads.  Too bad you couldn't have marked all of your parts somehow to ensure they actually get put on/in your motor.  I have worked at a few dealerships and shops and some really messed up stuff can happen when the vehicle owner is not around to see it. 

Offline jays05

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Re: Another engine build for my STI.
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2009, 08:52:12 PM »
They are used D25 06 WRX heads that I paid Jr for already.  He acquired them from one of his customers that was selling them.  Those heads I posted pics of are B25 07 STI heads.

Here are the "real heads"





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