Lemme' get a Tune. Please

[TheBigChill]

  Well, I bought a two piece Bosal DWG downpipe and all gaskets, as well as a non-catted STi uppipe.  I was hoping someone could hook me up with a "safe" stage 2 tune.  I'm working on getting my own tactrix, but I don't want to drive it too long on the stock tune and catless DP, even though the '02-'03 WRX don't have the CL/OL issues others have. 

 Additionally, if anyone wants to lend a hand putting these on (DP, UP), I plan on doing it next weekend at RPI on the lift.  I will buy food, beer, etc. for those willing. Let me know. 


 So far, I've spent $360 on the WRX for:

 -Front and rear strut bars.
 -TWM short shifter.
 -Prothane Shifter Bushings.
 -Prosport Boost gauge w/ Subiegal Pod.
 -Bosal DWG 2 piece down-pipe, w/ all gaskets.
 -STi catless up-pipe.

 I think that's money very well spent, and after a nice free / free-ish tune, I'll be in good shape and be "done" w/ modding.     Well, I need better tires too...
 

[Spanky WRX]

I have a tune for it if you are willing to drive to herkimer ny. 13350. Right off the thruway

[TheBigChill]

 Right on.  Appreciate the offer, though I'd wait to see if anyone closer could do it.  Either way, thanks a lot man !   

[idipskoalmint]

PMed

[stylesrex]

  Well, I bought a two piece Bosal DWG downpipe and all gaskets, as well as a non-catted STi uppipe.  I was hoping someone could hook me up with a "safe" stage 2 tune.  I'm working on getting my own tactrix, but I don't want to drive it too long on the stock tune and catless DP, even though the '02-'03 WRX don't have the CL/OL issues others have. 

 Additionally, if anyone wants to lend a hand putting these on (DP, UP), I plan on doing it next weekend at RPI on the lift.  I will buy food, beer, etc. for those willing. Let me know. 


 So far, I've spent $360 on the WRX for:

 -Front and rear strut bars.
 -TWM short shifter.
 -Prothane Shifter Bushings.
 -Prosport Boost gauge w/ Subiegal Pod.
 -Bosal DWG 2 piece down-pipe, w/ all gaskets.
 -STi catless up-pipe.

 I think that's money very well spent, and after a nice free / free-ish tune, I'll be in good shape and be "done" w/ modding.     Well, I need better tires too...
 

This is what I'll never understand.  You brag about 'smartly' spending money and yet want a tune for next-to-nothing.  How is that money well spent?  The one thing that can put everything in harmony (ecu tune) you don't want to pay for?  You have generic modifications, so tunes are abundant, but I ask again how is spending money on parts is better or more important than a custom tune?

02-03 wrx do have OL/CL issues so I'm not sure where you're getting that misinformation

[SideshowBob]

Money well spent.. pretty much. The front strut bar is totally worthless though.

You are missing some things IMO like some kind of suspension upgrade, tires (as mentioned), brake work (pads, fluid, SS Lines), and you need a catback as the factory one flows like shit.

[TheBigChill]

 SideShow:  I did rotors and pads, all fluids etc, the first week I had the car.  Tires are coming soon, after these wear down.  I'm not doing any suspension upgrades, other than chassis stiffening as mentioned.  I have no intentions of lowering the car all, maybe later I'll add performance struts for good measure.  Cat-back is not likely going to happen, as I don't want the loudness of one.

This is what I'll never understand.  You brag about 'smartly' spending money and yet want a tune for next-to-nothing.  How is that money well spent?  The one thing that can put everything in harmony (ecu tune) you don't want to pay for?  You have generic modifications, so tunes are abundant, but I ask again how is spending money on parts is better or more important than a custom tune?

02-03 wrx do have OL/CL issues so I'm not sure where you're getting that misinformatio

StylesRex:

 Listen brother, there is not a damn thing wrong with getting an Opensource tune for free.  You have to start somewhere....  What would you do?  You'd start w/ a base map, modify it, drive the car & data-log, view, and modify further.  Sounds identical to what I would do.....   I'm not waiting until some guy flies in to do tunes, I am not spending the fucking retarded ass-raping $500 it costs for a pro-tune.  Why you ask ?  Because : I am not looking to milk every last bit of power out of the car.  I'm looking to prevent creep and spiking, lean out the mixture a bit while still being safe, and just logging to see that things are safe.  I've owned, installed and tuned my own Emanage Blue, Apexi SAFC and Split Second PSC with ZERO issues, so I think I can handle using another tuning / logging interface after a familiarizing session w/ the program and critical parameters.  I've been been driving turbocharged and tuned cars since 1999, and I won't be talked to like some "Car-Newb".  

 
  Every post and thread I found about running a catless Downpipe or TBE on an untuned 02-03 WRX, said that these two years DO NOT have the same fueling / open loop transitional issues that '04 + have, and that they can compensate for these exhaust changes, whereas the newer WRX's can't. This includes long time NASIOC Moderators, and people that I find as trusted sources of info.  Yes it will make more POWER tuned, but is it "unsafe" untuned ?  No, as long as max boost is controlled and fuel cut avoided....otherwise it'll be rich and stinky.  I have a boost gauge now, and I'll have a wideband when this DP gets installed.

  I love how people will always assume you're a newb to everything, just because you're a newb to their Forum.   Please go preach to every single person that spent $600 for a Cobb AP and OTS map, because that IS retarded.....but somehow I'm an asshole for using a free OTS map.....?

   I honestly can't tell if you're trying to offer your tuning expertise in some odd and very misguided manner, or if you just want to break my balls....   I understand you tune, so I won't question your ability to tune....  Please return the favor by not talking to me like I'm some fucking idiot, because rest assured this is not my first Rodeo.  

[Spanky WRX]

I'm about an hour and 15 mind from albany. Its really not that bad of a ride if u go the thruway

[TheBigChill]

I'm about an hour and 15 mind from albany. Its really not that bad of a ride if u go the thruway

 Yeah, that's true it's not too far I guess.  Thanks again, I'll keep in touch !   

[SideshowBob]

Personally I think without at a minimum upgraded sways and end-links along with a good alignment the car handles like a pig.

Good luck with your tune

[TheBigChill]

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2009653&highlight=no+tune

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1542960&highlight=no+tune

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1486068&highlight=no+tune

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1961213&highlight=tune



Directly from the NASIOC Downpipe FAQ:
 

Do I need engine management with a downpipe? For 02/03 WRX and STI users, no.  For 04+ WRX users, it's pretty much a requirement as the open loop/closed loop fueling issue mandated by the EPA causes long term reliability problems with using a downpipe and no tuning. For STI users, the STI was the one exception manufacturers are allowed to have, but it's a wise move regardless as the STI and 06+ WRX users have a good chance of boost creep occuring with downpipe use. Tuning can ease this issue, but the cause/effect/cure of boost creep can be researched via this link.

 Those are just a few.

[TheBigChill]

Personally I think without at a minimum upgraded sways and end-links along with a good alignment the car handles like a pig.

Good luck with your tune

 Very true, I forgot about sways for the moment.        A pig indeed....

[Kavik]

StylesRex:

 Listen brother, <long ass rant>

   Take a breath man....a lot of people around here do bust balls, Styles and RedRoof (for example) will be at the top of your shit list if you take things so seriously 


  That said, you didn't once mention in your original post, your list of mods or your future plans that you're familiar with tuning your own cars and plan to tune off this 'base map' that you're looking to get.  So, yeah, I would've assumed the same...that you were just taking a generic map and leaving it at that.
  If you think that's an unreasonable assumption, keep searching and you'll find 10x's as many links showing that there are a LOT of people out there who will do just that.

[stylesrex]

StylesRex:

 Listen brother, there is not a damn thing wrong with getting an Opensource tune for free.  You have to start somewhere....  What would you do?  You'd start w/ a base map, modify it, drive the car & data-log, view, and modify further.  Sounds identical to what I would do.....   I'm not waiting until some guy flies in to do tunes, I am not spending the fucking retarded ass-raping $500 it costs for a pro-tune.  Why you ask ?  Because : I am not looking to milk every last bit of power out of the car.  Is that OK with you ?   I'm looking to prevent creep and spiking, lean out the mixture a bit while still being safe, and just logging to see that things are safe.  Please don't preach to me like I've never done any work on a turbo and tuned car before.  I've owned, installed and tuned my own Emanage Blue, Apexi SAFC and Split Second PSC with ZERO issues, so I think I can handle using another tuning / logging interface after a familiarizing session w/ the program and critical parameters.  I've been been driving turbocharged and tuned cars since 1999, and I won't be talked to like some "Car-Newb". 

 
  Every post and thread I found about running a catless Downpipe or TBE on an untuned 02-03 WRX, said that these two years DO NOT have the same fueling / open loop transitional issues that '04 + have, and that they can compensate for these exhaust changes, whereas the newer WRX's can't. This includes long time NASIOC Moderators, and people that I find as trusted sources of info.  Yes it will make more POWER tuned, but is it "unsafe", no....it'll be rich and stinky.  I have a boost gauge now, and I'll have a wideband when this DP gets installed.

  I love how people will always assume you're a newb to everything, just because you're a newb to their Forum.   Please go preach to every single person that spent $600 for a fucking Cobb AP and OTS map, because that IS retarded.....but somehow I'm an asshole for using a free OTS map....

   I honestly can't tell if you're trying to offer your tuning expertise in some fucked up misguided manner, or if you just want to break my balls....   I understand you tune, so I won't question your ability to tune....  Please return the favor by not talking to me like I'm some fucking idiot, because rest assured this is not my first Rodeo.   

Anything wrong with a free OS tune...no, but all OTS maps need work. i would drive the car & data-log, view, and modify further like you said.  Really the OS rom that you would get for free would be a temporary band-air until you modified it to fit your car.  In all seriousness, thank you for extrapolating on that.  the drive the 'car&datalog' part most don't do. IMHO, you don't need a base map per say, it would be easier to make the adjustment's to your own rom. Why not save a copy of your stock map and tune from it? That is what i do.(not that you care as i've prolly alienated you)  Then you don't have to review each table on the OTS map comparing it to your stock rom, figure out what they changed and why(if you're interested in that stuff) You already know what you got(stock rom) and can make the changes you want.  Everyone tunes differently.

02-03 still have OL/CL delays just not as "bad" as 04+. either would require some massaging in the rom.  Although not ideal, yes you are correct, you can get away with it if you have a bugeye.

given all your experience I wanted to point out it isn't apples to apples. You may already know this however:
The way you make adjustments in a piggyback EM like the ones you listed are not the same as a reflash because you not working within the restraint of the ecu adaptive ability.  You are changing the base definitions.  The EM you listed are elaborate signal modifiers.  Subaru's ecu will learn around those or forever be searching for programmed parameters.  Older cars didn't have such adaptability which is why Apexi AFC's and the like were popular and effective.  These were the problems many enthusiast faced when trying to upgrade injectors and turbos on their GD subaru's waaay back when they were released. you remember unichip? xede? Utec? eeprom and OS made that shit obsolete.

So, I will not type to you like an idiot and take this as 'getting to know' TBC 

[TheBigChill]

  I don't mind a little ball busting, when due.  I bust balls myself.

  I didn't mention my previous tuning endeavors because I didn't think I'd instantly have my balls busted and people assuming that I'm clueless, after starting this thread, and have to defend everything I said.

  The only mod on that list that necessitated a tune or even would benefit from a tune, is the Bosal DWG down-pipe.  My future plans are in that 1st post.  I'm not doing anything beyond those mods, or at least where tuning will be needed.  If I plop on an OTS XPT map, and the data-logging shows that there are no issues that need assessing, I'll leave it B and run it.  If something needs to be changed based on my specific engine parameters, I'll modify the map accordingly. I simply want better flowing exhaust, a bit more power, and some earlier spool, and better mileage would be cool.  Like I said, not everyone is looking to juice out that last drop of horsepower from their car.  This is my daily, and not some track slut or weekend car.

 

[skyphix]

I like turtles.

[TheBigChill]

Anything wrong with a free OS tune...no, but all OTS maps need work. i would drive the car & data-log, view, and modify further like you said.  Really the OS rom that you would get for free would be a temporary band-air until you modified it to fit your car.  In all seriousness, thank you for extrapolating on that.  the drive the 'car&datalog' part most don't do. IMHO, you don't need a base map per say, it would be easier to make the adjustment's to your own rom. Why not save a copy of your stock map and tune from it? That is what i do.(not that you care as i've prolly alienated you)  Then you don't have to review each table on the OTS map comparing it to your stock rom, figure out what they changed and why(if you're interested in that stuff) You already know what you got(stock rom) and can make the changes you want.  Everyone tunes differently.

02-03 still have OL/CL delays just not as "bad" as 04+. either would require some massaging in the rom.  Although not ideal, yes you are correct, you can get away with it if you have a bugeye.

given all your experience I wanted to point out it isn't apples to apples. You may already know this however:
The way you make adjustments in a piggyback EM like the ones you listed are not the same as a reflash because you not working within the restraint of the ecu adaptive ability.  You are changing the base definitions.  The EM you listed are elaborate signal modifiers.  Subaru's ecu will learn around those or forever be searching for programmed parameters.  Older cars didn't have such adaptability which is why Apexi AFC's and the like were popular and effective.  These were the problems many enthusiast faced when trying to upgrade injectors and turbos on their GD subaru's waaay back when they were released. you remember unichip? xede? Utec? eeprom and OS made that shit obsolete.

So, I will not type to you like an idiot and take this as 'getting to know' TBC  cool

 Right on.  ^  That was actually helpful.  I AM very much a Subaru newb, but not at all a signal modification and calibration newb, so I have experience that should come in somewhat handy while learning about the WRX ECU.  You're right, the previously mentioned EMS' that I have worked with are merely signal modifiers, calibrators, conditioners and crude voltage clamps.  I knew the WRX ECU would be a bit different, but by how much and in what sense was / is still a minor mystery to me.  

 I'm very open to suggestions, and will def need some initial support on even slightly modding a map for this car.  Making adjustments to my own ROM, and using it as a starting point sounds fine.  I just thought that it may be less labor intensive to use an already modded map for my semi-specific application and then deviate from that in one way or another.  It's tough to thumb through all these posts that say the 02-03 doesn't have the ECU transition issues, and then hear one guy say otherwise, and put all my confidence in one or the other.  Advice from Forums have always been that way, but it never gets easier to weed out the BS.

 

[peter32892]

From my understanding cars don't learn around piggybacks they fight them. If you know how to get around this it isn't much of a problem. The ecu will not fight against open loop inputs from the piggyback which is what "wot" would be so you are fine with adjusting that, but what the ecu will fight against is when it is in closed loop. To get around it all you need to know is what the closed loop afr is then you put that afr into the piggy back that way the stock ecu will see "stock" afr mean it won't fight against the piggyback.

[spoolordie]

styles knows his shit

he gave me a base map for my turbo swap, along with a bunch of people on the board

[cazwrx187]

Why are you doing power mods right before winter?  Save up money over the winter for a real tune and install everything in the spring.  Right now you should spend some money on swaybars and endlinks to make winter driving more manageable and fun.

[TheBigChill]

Why are you doing power mods right before winter?  Save up money over the winter for a real tune and install everything in the spring.  Right now you should spend some money on swaybars and endlinks to make winter driving more manageable and fun.

   What date works better for you...for me ..to mod my car ?      I'm done spending $ on unnecessary car parts for the next few months, as I'm trying to buy a house.

  I think between the AWD and snow tires, I'll make it through the winter fine.

[phong]

^^^^^^^

Stock suspension is arguably better suited to controlled winter driving than stiff bars and links...

[RS25BG]

I think between the AWD and snow tires, I'll make it through the winter fine.

your in for the time of your life, if youve never been in a subaru during the winter

[cazwrx187]

You can learn a lot by driving your car hard in the winter on low grip winter tires.  Just saying.   It is your car though. 

[TheBigChill]

 
 Yep, I've usually had my '86 Toyota 4x4 for winter, but the WRX should be fun.


 Caz:  I'm not sure I understand what you're proposing.