My unexpected FI build... An M62!

[FastfreddyRs]

When i boosted my 2000 RS i ran a Split second FTC1, you should look into it.

http://www.splitsec.com/products/fuel-timingcalibrator.htm

It has a built in map sensor and a variable output for the stock ECU. it is a piggyback but the stock ecu will not learn around it.

[TheBigChill]

 If it's a 1 Bar MAP sensor, you know exactly what it's good for.  1 Bar.

 With a regulated air pressure supply, power supply and multi-meter, you can find any MAP sensors output at different pressures.

 My advice is to bite the bullet.  What you could "get away with" is far from ideal, or even sufficient IMO.  

 You were initially expressing concern about even boosting such an old motor.  Now, you're not only going to boost it, but do it cheaply.  Doesn't sound like a recipe for success.  Not hating or trying to talk you down, just saying that if it's worth doing..it's worth doing right.  

 While an intercooler is always ideal ( I'd do it), at least a blower is not powered by exhaust gasses like a turbo is.  Hot..

[TheBigChill]

When i boosted my 2000 RS i ran a Split second FTC1, you should look into it.

http://www.splitsec.com/products/fuel-timingcalibrator.htm

It has a built in map sensor and a variable output for the stock ECU. it is a piggyback but the stock ecu will not learn around it.

 ^ I used two different units from Split Second as well.  FTC and AFC.   It was almost too easy to tune, but lacked table resolution when compared to other options.  Overall, I liked both units used.

[hydrochloric]

If it's a 1 Bar MAP sensor, you know exactly what it's good for.  1 Bar.

 With a regulated air pressure supply, power supply and multi-meter, you can find any MAP sensors output at different pressures.

 My advice is to bite the bullet.  What you could "get away with" is far from ideal, or even sufficient IMO.  

 You were initially expressing concern about even boosting such an old motor.  Now, you're not only going to boost it, but do it cheaply.  Doesn't sound like a recipe for success.  Not hating or trying to talk you down, just saying that if it's worth doing..it's worth doing right.  

 While an intercooler is always ideal ( I'd do it), at least a blower is not powered by exhaust gasses like a turbo is.  Hot..

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing you have.  I always knew I was gonna do it, but the high-mileage engine concerned me, then I realized I was avoiding what I should use for control...

As for the electronics...  I think I'll hunt for a EManage.  I know it will work well in this application, the only thing that was never made clear in the case of Skidd's build is whether or not the car remained OBDII compliant.  I suppose it must have, considering that the EManage is a piggyback.

So, seems like the actual construction portion is on hold.  WRX pump, the FPR and EM have to be sorted first.

The reason I'm avoiding the IC is because there won't be a good way to do it with the existing setup.  I'd have to either cut the piping that already exists, get another throttle body and make the original TB useless, or run a front mount.  None of which are ideal, I'd basically have to rebuild the entire system after the SC.  I'll try it without first, and see what temp increases I get.

[Nismonic]

 I know you want to keep this simple, but I'll throw this out there:  Chemical / evaporative cooling.  Spray meth / water.  This can be ran off the same MAP sensor I think.  Either way, GM 2 & 3 Bar units are cheap to buy if you wanted to have a dedicated sensor.

 A pump, wire, some press-lock fittings, tubing, spray nozzle.  Boom, you're in, for $200 -300.  As you probably already know, most windshield wiper fluid is methanol & water, so you could tap that already exisiting fluid tank.  If you have room under the hood for a large coffee thermos, you can fit a pump to do this.

I put my meth/water cooling system together for around $250 -- $199 for the Cooling Mist Stage-1 tankless kit (pump, lines, fittings, nozzle, boost sensor), a new 2 gallon tank, a relay, and a fluid level sensor. This isn't a bad option as long as you keep an eye on the fluid level. The -20*F blue fluid they sell for less than $2 a gallon at Walmart is my cooling fluid of choice, but I use water for SCCA events or in a pinch if I'm on the road and run out of the good stuff.
   

[TheBigChill]

I put my meth/water cooling system together for around $250 -- $199 for the Cooling Mist Stage-1 tankless kit (pump, lines, fittings, nozzle, boost sensor), a new 2 gallon tank, a relay, and a fluid level sensor. This isn't a bad option as long as you keep an eye on the fluid level. The -20*F blue fluid they sell for less than $2 a gallon at Walmart is my cooling fluid of choice, but I use water for SCCA events or in a pinch if I'm on the road and run out of the good stuff.
   

 Nice Rob.  OP will be in a position that if he chooses to go this route for cooling purposes only, he will be OK if he runs out of fluid and doesn't notice for a little while.  You could even spray straight water for evaporative cooling only.  If he makes his actual tune dependent on having this meth/water there (pushing timing, replacing some fuel with meth), then you need a spray fail-safe, indicator light, etc. 

[Nismonic]

Nice Rob.  OP will be in a position that if he chooses to go this route for cooling purposes only, he will be OK if he runs out of fluid and doesn't notice for a little while.  You could even spray straight water for evaporative cooling only.  If he makes his actual tune dependent on having this meth/water there (pushing timing, replacing some fuel with meth), then you need a spray fail-safe, indicator light, etc. 

That's true. If the kit was designed to run sans intercooler, then he should have no problem (other than a loss of power) by cramming extra hot air into his engine, if he runs out of boost juice. I always cary extra fluids of all types in the RX-7... since you never know what you might need when it strands you on the side of the road.   

[TheBigChill]

That's true. If the kit was designed to run sans intercooler, then he should have no problem (other than a loss of power) by cramming extra hot air into his engine, if he runs out of boost juice. I always cary extra fluids of all types in the RX-7... since you never know what you might need when it strands you on the side of the road.   

 Yeppers.

 For the Rx-7:  Do you keep spare Apex seals and ATF fluid around ?      You could put that motor in a duffle bag and rebuild it at a rest stop.   

[Nismonic]

For the Rx-7:  Do you keep spare Apex seals and ATF fluid around ?      You could put that motor in a duffle bag and rebuild it at a rest stop.   

My motor doesn't flood ... no need to carry around ATF. 












Well it does, but the S5 computer cuts fuel when you floor the pedal on start-up so it de-floods its self.   

[TheBigChill]

My motor doesn't flood ... no need to carry around ATF. 


 Mine didn't either. 


 After I installed a fuel pump cut-off switch.   









Well it does, but the S5 computer cuts fuel when you floor the pedal on start-up so it de-floods its self.   

[hydrochloric]

Oh great, now my thread has been hijacked by two meth addicts! 

It's a good idea, but I've learned with this Fiero, simple is better.  It would be fairly easy to install after the whole system was already installed, so unless I find I need it, I'll avoid another complication for now.  To that end, I logged some OBDII data with my iPod on a trip to the S'toga DMV and back, so I have some averages.  I logged IAT, Throttle Position, Coolant Temp, "Boost" and IM Pressure.  I should clarify that the IM Pressure reads directly off the MAP sensor, whereas the "Boost" reading is MAP and Baro. combined.  I can see why you need a 2-Bar MAP now...

Anyway:

	ECT (ºF)	TP (%)	IAT (ºF)	Boost (PSI/inHg)	IM Pressure (PSI)
Min	176	0 (obviously)	93.2	-12.2	2.5
Max	203	100 (obviously )	152.6	-0.05	14.6
Avg	188	8.889	118.5	-8.8	5.9
Ext. Temp:	79ºF

What can be gained from this?  Apparently I'm a more economical driver than I thought, first off!    2, I'll obviously need a higher-pressure MAP sensor, since a 1Bar (15PSI) is somehow maxing on N/A...  Someone explain that to me, please.    Also, the Max IAT was 152, which sounds high, but when compared to the average of 118, it's not so bad.  But I wanted to know more.  So, I did a frequency analysis.

\/ Times IAT was less than	\/ these values:
0	85
0	90
9	95
10	100
155	105
152	110
333	115
79	120
68	125
103	130
179	135
88	140
24	145
19	150
2	155

Again, what does that say?  Well the majority of the time, around 50%, the IAT is between 100 and 115.  That makes sense given the average.  Additionally, the highest temperature reached OFTEN is 130-135, around 17% of the time.  Okay, that's all well and good, but how does the temperature relate to the TP?



Ah.  So the IAT spikes when my foot gets heavy.  Odd, since I would expect the more air coming in, the cooler it would be, but then again, the more air, the bigger the fire.  Let's see a better section view...



So the temp rises after the throttle is opened, but spikes higher when the throttle is closed after a WOT state.  Presumably because the heat from the WOT can no longer be balanced with more, faster air.

What that therefore implies that the time when the charge temp will be HIGHEST is immediately after closing the throttle after a WOT state.  At that point, so little is required of the engine, it might be conceivable to ignore it, since there's no load...  BUT!  If I were merely letting off the throttle to shift...  Then the IATs would be HIGHER before I even put load on the engine for the next gear...

*This does not take into account the heat added by the S/C when the throttle is closed simply because the TB will be ahead of the S/C, so at 0% throttle, the S/c won't be heating air, having no air to heat.

Perhaps then the ideal way to set up an injection system, if required, is to have it spray at high RPM, high throttle with high RPM, and have a logic circuit for 0% throttle.  IE, it would spray if I went from >80-90% straight to 0, to try to offset the heat gain, but wouldn't spray if the pre-0% were lower.  That would be really easy to do via an Arduino and relay.  Of course, just using a pressure switch or control from the EM would get me 2/3 of the scenarios.

This all assumes a more or less instant effect from the injection.  It might be worth my while to experiment with injection while N/A, to see the immediacy of the effects, and tune the control from there.

Hmm.  Looks like I talked myself into it!  TBH, it's a good thing anyway, since I know our engines are knock-prone.

That's true. If the kit was designed to run sans intercooler, then he should have no problem (other than a loss of power) by cramming extra hot air into his engine, if he runs out of boost juice. I always cary extra fluids of all types in the RX-7... since you never know what you might need when it strands you on the side of the road.   

Well, the kit may have been designed to run sans-IC, but it was also known for causing the deaths of quite a few EJ's, because they either ran lean or overheated.  Plus, it was designed for the "dumb" (≤98) ECUs, that would just adjust to whatever you did to them.  I'm not in that boat. I'm in the boat that's picky about what you use it for, and randomly scuttles itself if not satisfied.    What I would most likely do is set up a fluid level switch that gives me a light to let me know I'm low, and then a second level switch that will trigger a timing retard on the ECU.  I know I'd probably be okay, but the reputation of the Rimmer kits is all to well known to not warrant SOME caution.

You know, I never thought about it...  What happens when a rotary "knocks"?  ...can it even be called "knocking"?

As for the fluids...  It doesn't matter what car I'm driving (although they all have their own specials sauces), I always have ATF, appropriate oil, coolant (except in the VW), and typically a grease of some type.  Oh, and 3 gallons of half drunk Sierra Mists. 

[TheBigChill]

  1 bar MAP sensor only measures from vacuum up to atmospheric pressure (~14.7psia).   The reason your car has a 1 Bar MAP sensor is because in stock form, that car will never see above 14.7psia, or 1 atm(atmosphere).  It will primarily operate in vacuum, unless you are fully loaded and WOT.  At WOT, you will max out your MAP sensor by just seeing atmospheric pressure.

 These MAP sensors and their ratings are for *Absolute pressure.  So atmospheric pressure (14.7) + applied boost.   That's why any boosted car that wants to tune with a MAP sensor or has one stock, has at least a 2 Bar MAP sensor.  If you ran 15psi from a blower or turbo, you'd just about max out a 2 Bar MAP sensor.   14.7atmosphere (1 bar) + 15psig (1 bar)  = 2 Bar. 

 Make sense ?
 

[hydrochloric]

Yeah, that was the explanation I needed.  It faked me out, I didn't think the sensor would have been setup to read absolute, because hell, when do we ever really think in absolute?  It makes sense to do so, but it was unexpected.

[hydrochloric]

Update, but not on the status of the build.  Rather, on the status of the car itself...

For the past...  I dunno, 6-ish months, the car has become more and more "jittery."  It's a bit hard to explain, but there's significant bump steer, and it dives left/right more than I like (or remember).  Driving in a straight line is still quite doable, but it does require an infinitesimal amount of more work (which doesn't bug me so much as worries me it's pointing to a bigger issue).  I've been troubleshooting it, now that the underhood issues have been (mostly) repaired.  I haven't come up with anything other than old shocks, though...  Also, my front ball joints have had torn boots for quite some time.  So today I tossed the car on the lift to swap those...  And a new story of utter aggravation was started.

First off, WHY THE HELL DOESN'T A DEALER GIVE YOU 12MM CASTLE NUTS WHEN YOU GIVE THEM $100 FOR TWO GORRAM BALL JOINTS?!  And before you wonder, no it wasn't Fred.  I was already in Troy, so I stopped at Carbone (which I have decided I will never use again.  I've never been very impressed by their service, or anything else, really.) and picked up two of them, without thinking to look and see if there were nuts.  And yes, I know I could have gotten the joints cheaper via Rock Auto or something, but one, I don't like to take chances on suspension parts, and two, I'm in a hell of a time pinch with classes starting Monday.

Anyway, what ensued was me running around Mechville, Clifton Park and a fair amount of Rt. 9 trying to find these nuts.  I can't reuse the old ones for many reasons, not least of all because the cotter pins were still in the joint's threads enough to tear up the nut, but not enough to grab for removal.  I went to:

Advance in Mcville
Country Living in Mcville
Joe's Cycle Shop in Mcville
Fastenall in CP
*In Fastenall's parking lot I called Capitaland to see if they had the nuts- nope.  Nor Goldstein.
NAPA in CP, who recommended ProCycle, which was in the direction of German Parts Direct (a long shot)
German Parts Direct in CP

At that point I headed towards Tractor Supply Co.  I was driving the Roadmaster we JUST (as in this morning) got back from the mechanics', and it had been down on power, so I assumed the plugs were fouled or some such.  Well, as I accelerated on to Rt. 9, I had to full throttle to try and keep up with traffic, and just when it should have shifted, there was a loud noise (not really identifiable) and then INCREDIBLY loud knocking.  Quite literally threw the car into the Hess lot and killed it.  Spun a bearing, or threw a rod.  Either way, SHIIIIIIIT.  My phone was minutes away from dying of no battery, so I called my mother to have her call the flatbed.  In the end, she came and took me to Advance back in Mcville, where I found some nuts on some other endlinks they had.

After the debacle, I went to try and get the ball joints off... and such began ANOTHER series of aggravations.  First, we didn't have the required tools.  So I headed BACK to the Advance in Mcville to get some.  Got home and got the transverse link portion of the ball joints disengaged, and got the driver's side "pinch" bolt out of the knuckle, which had actually been replaced by a nut and bolt.  Unfortunately, the joint itself WOULD.  NOT.  BUDGE.  So for the moment I went to the other side to take out that knuckle's pinch bolt.  Which, of course, snapped.  My guess is, when Warren Tire did my wheel bearings, they impacted those damn pinch bolts in, and when I made them fix the bearing they got backwards (the driver's side knuckle...  coincidence? ), the pinch bolt snapped (big surprise!  You only put it in with 12,000lbs of force!) and they drilled it and replaced it with the nut & bolt.  Makes sense, since the new bolt was pretty much pristine.

Anyway, I hit EVERYTHING with WD-40 on the driver's side, and PB Blaster on the passenger's side (I'm evaluating the claims people make about PB vs my choice, WD).  Tomorrow comes the "Torch, hammer, drill, swear, tow, empty pockets" stage.

Anyone had this much trouble with ball joints before?  I know most of yours wouldn't have 240K on them, but still...  Any clues on how to free the damn things from the knuckles?

P.S.  Most of that ^ rant probably wasn't necessary, but it made me happy.   

[hydrochloric]

Oh hey, never did update after all that.

Roadmaster turned out to be fine.  A starter had failed previous to us owning the car, and the snout had fallen in the bellhousing, never removed.  It was what started banging.  Now it's losing coolant somewhere.

My car, well, there's other threads on that.  Suffice to say, I might actually get the supercharger on soon- these past two days I used my old VW in the filming of an HBO movie, and that payed fairly well.  Enough that I could theoretically get this done.  We'll see....